Li Upgrades

[Mubashir Hayat]

Recently Ben of Parliament started a thread about upgrades to our coaches. On a thread that started about OTR it morphed into a discussion of Li batteries to replace our current lead acid house batteries.

I am sure we all have some interest in the benefits of batteries that are lighter in weight and that can deliver more power than what we currently might have. What makes the topic difficullt to cover is some coach owners with Li systems have had serious (spelled expensive) problems. Promised long life has not always been the case. Rebuildable or cost effective systems have been promised and some Li batteries have been described as “drop in” replacements. We need to explore this information and associated facts.

The entire topic needs to be discussed, but with people who really know the Li batteries, their systems, and how this technology can apply to our coaches. So I have invited Ben of Parliament and Jack Johnson of Volta to participate in what we hope can be a very informative discussion. This will be the place to ask the hard questions and to get facts from people that make and install these batteries and systems in Prevost coaches. Ben of course is the person responsible for the Parliament coach electrical system designs, and Volta has a relationship with Pantera Coach so we not only have Li expertise, we have that expertise as it relates to our coaches.

Post your questions and don’t be shy. This is a real opportunity to get to the nitty gritty.

 

Jon and Di 2006 Liberty Elegant Lady, 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1950 Ford Knoxville, TN Owner of three Liberty Coaches since 1990

[Mubashir Hayat]

What will be the difficulties and changes needed to have a 12v coach changed over to lithium batteries or is it even possible without having to gut the whole system? Also, I’ve heard that lithium batteries are lighter and store more charge but are more expensive so when do you think it becomes cost effective to change over or is the change to lithium for use in older conversions just a pipe dream?

 

Fred

 

 

1998 Liberty XL
“Drive On”

[Mubashir Hayat]

Fred, it is not a matter of what your house battery voltage is present, it is a matter of the adjustability of charge voltage parameters of the alternator voltage regulator that charges the house batteries, the inverter/chargers and any other charge source.  If you want a Lithium Iron Phosphate upgrade, gutting the whole system is usually not required.

So, on most Liberty Coaches of the late 90’s up to the late 2000’s I have seen, the alternator that charges the house is shared with the chassis through a battery isolator.  The house batteries I have seen have been 24v with a battery equalizer and then utilizing the 12v tap from the house batteries to power the 12v loads in the coach.  Is this the case with your coach?  Early 90’s 12v Liberty Classics I have seen had a smaller alternator mounted on the fan gearbox that charged the 12v house batteries, with no interconnection between the two at all.  If you can determine which, it will be easier to evaluate your particular situation and come up with a workable solution.

I am going to be quite honest with you that if you have Heart Freedom 25 inverters, those are going to need to be changed to either the Magnum MS2812 or MSH3012 units, or Outback FX series inverter/chargers.  From there, you may also end up needing to change the chassis batteries as well, especially if a single 24v alternator is charging both banks through an isolator.  Again, this is because single alternator voltage settings will need to be changed for proper charging settings, and would be too high a setting to charge the current liquid lead acid group 31 batteries you probably currently have.

If you have truly 12v house bank, with a separate alternator, then the chassis battery change would not be required, but that smaller alternator must have an adjustable voltage regulator or else it will need to be changed with one that does.

As food for thought, the expense to change to Lithium Ion batteries greatly depends on several factors.  One being the reason you want to do it.  Is it to gain longevity or dry-camping and overall battery lifetime, or are you wanting to gain other benefits like making electrical system modifications to run an a/c unit or two off of the bank, or some other such goal?  It does make a difference as to the specific advantages you are wanting to pick up.

 

Ben Cummings
U.S.A. Luxury Coaches, LLC
4501-B Ulmerton Rd
Clearwater, FL 33762
USALuxurycoach.com
813-830-8619 (cell)

[Mubashir Hayat]

Ben,
I have a 96 12V Classic Liberty. Just as You described with the separate alternator for the house batteries. And have 2 Magnum 2812 inverters.

1) What is involved to simply upgrade from AGM to Li ?

2) Some of the new Li batteries claim to be drop in replacements. Is this true ?

3) What in Your opinion is the best Li batteries on the market today ?

4) finally , The heartburn ? Rough estimated cost to Upgrade batteries with no other additional changes ?

Thanks in advance,
Rocky

Wife says We have ” GONE CRAZY ”
Rocky And Tonya
Fiber optic Splicing And Maintenance
1996 Mirage XL 40 Liberty Classic # 322/ Rivets
With TYRON’S Baby !

[Mubashir Hayat]

Hi Ben, thanks for taking on these questions about LI batteries. My coach has a separate 160 amp alternator to charge the house batteries and I have the two Freedom 25 as well. I do dry camp frequently and my Freedoms are still working perfectly. It would be nice to have the extra charge strength and longer life (if that’s the right way to look at it) that Lithium would provide but I’m not sure if it makes sense cost wise to up grade, especially if I would need new inverters to pull it off.

Fred

 

1998 Liberty XL
“Drive On”

[Mubashir Hayat]

Jack is having trouble logging in, and I hope I helped him. I know he also wants to respond.

Jon and Di 2006 Liberty Elegant Lady, 2021
Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1950 Ford
Knoxville, TN

Owner of three Liberty Coaches since 1990

[Mubashir Hayat]

Ben’s comments about the alternator prompt me to make a general comment. When asking specific questions try to include information about your inverters and coach charging system. I don’t think any of us can keep track of all the variations and I have seen coaches with the large 50 DN charging house and chassis at 24V, I have seen the 24V 50 DN charging the house and a smaller 12V alternator for the chassis, but I have also seen a 50DN at 12V charging the house and a smaller 24V for the chassis, all of which is influenced by if the coach has OTR or if the converter intended for cooling to be from a 12V house system and inverters.

It will help if you know your specific inverters.

And as it will help with design considerations try to explain your objectives such as to improve capacity for dry camping.

Jon and Di 2006 Liberty Elegant Lady, 2021
Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1950 Ford
Knoxville, TN

Owner of three Liberty Coaches since 1990

 

[Mubashir Hayat]

Rocky,

The answer to your question is yes AND no.  There are batteries like Smart Battery that are essentially “drop-in” but I STRONGLY recommend that you have someone who really does know both the coach and the battery to make sure everything is adjusted to the exact charge and auto-start specs that are not really published anywhere on the web, but need to be observed for EVERY CHARGING SOURCE possible on the coach.

And, like I said, the Freedom series of inverter/chargers from Heart are unfortunately not adjustable like the newer inverters on the market are, and therefore incompatible.

Hope that helps.

Smart Battery and GreenLiFE, both of whom I have been working back and forth with, both run $2999/ea for the 8D equivalent, and about $1299/ea for the group 31 engine start battery.  I am working to decide which to become a dealer with.  Smart Battery has been around a little longer, but GreenLiFE is local to Tampa, and seem much more responsive.  The cells both use are made by the same company in China, like all Lithium Iron Phosphate cylindrical or prismatic cells.  Both of these use the cylindrical cells which for several reasons are much safer a design.

Ben Cummings
U.S.A. Luxury Coaches, LLC
4501-B Ulmerton Rd
Clearwater, FL 33762
USALuxurycoach.com
813-830-8619 (cell)

[Mubashir Hayat]

Hi Rocky,

 

Your first question about “simply” upgrade from lead to lithium ion is not a simple subject :-).  I agree with Ben that if you are thinking about changing to any lithium ion solution you should seek the help of experts to insure safe, reliable install.

 

If you are happy with the capacity/runtime of the lead acid/AGM batteries you are using today and you want longer life and some weight savings a lithium Iron Phospate solution might be the right option for you.  As Ben noted all lithium ion chemistries have different charging requirements so if your inverters are not programable then it’s best to stay with lead acid.  All lithium ion chemistires need process control much like an engine does to ensure safe, long life operation.  Due to that fact no lithium ion will fit exactly where lead acid was but lithium ion phosphate is the closest lithium ion chemistry to lead acid.

What is the best batteries on the market?  That is a very tough question especially for a guy that is trying to sell advanced energy systems.  This question is kind of like asking the question which automotive manufacturer builds the best pick up truck?  Answer:  You are going to get a lot of opinions.  There are many key factors that define quality and performance but it would turn this post into a novel.

I would recommend looking at what major OEM’s are doing like GM, Ford, Toyota, etc.  These companies spend a great deal in research and development to insure high quality long life.

 

 

Cost or Heart burn is governed by how much you want to run and for how long.  Higher quality systems retail between $900 – $1400 per kWh.  A kWh is = to your Voltage x Amphr rating.  When comparing lead acid cost to lithium I recommend the following.  Lead acid you should only use 50% or the stated rating, Lithium iron phosphate is 70% and NMC is 90% this means that you only get to use half of the energy you pay for in a lead acid battery and you should adjust to useable energy when comparing cost.

 

 

I hope this helps some.

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mubashir Hayat]

I have 4 8D 12V batteries set up to provide 12 and 24V for the house. The inverters are a pair of Outback pure sine wave inverters of 4000 watts. I do not know the exact model because of the lackof paper work, but I believe the chargine current is adjustable. Assuming it is If I am readng correctly I do not need much more than a set of batteries of equivalent power.

But my reservations are as follows. It appears the cost of batteries alone are between 3 and 4 times the cost of equivalent AGM batteries so to make any economic sense can I be assured the life will be 15 to 20 years because I throw my batteries away every 5 years?

There have been reported issues with some Li installations and batteries are not available for direct replacement. The original design was changed and the newest designs do not make a substitution of old design with new design the best choice because of some incompatibility issues. Are the batteries being suggested for updating systems of an established design that has been unchanged for a decade or more, or more specifically are they directly interchangeable with older batteries such as we might experience with current LA batteries.

Does an autostart system have to be modified to work with batteries such as Li?

Obsolescence on some coaches and their systems are beginning to be an issue with some older systems noo longer supported which translates into expensive repairs. How can an investment to Li for all the associated benefits be protected against obsolescence, especially in the working parts?

 

Jon and Di 2006 Liberty Elegant Lady, 2021
Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1950 Ford
Knoxville, TN

Owner of three Liberty Coaches since 1990

[Mubashir Hayat]

What about wiring? Would any of the wires involved have to be up graded too?

Fred

1998 Liberty XL
“Drive On”

[Mubashir Hayat]

Wiring should not be an issue as is on a Liberty, and most reputable conversions.  Some entertainer coaches I have seen, well, I’ll be nice and just say that wiring may be an issue  needing addressed.

Ben Cummings
U.S.A. Luxury Coaches, LLC
4501-B Ulmerton Rd
Clearwater, FL 33762
USALuxurycoach.com
813-830-8619 (cell)

[Mubashir Hayat]

Jon,

One of the main reasons I started talking to these battery manufacturers is that the basic thought and design of the units themselves only generally require value adjustments to charging and autostart parameters.  As long as the installed equipment is adjustable and have the ranges to accommodate the Li’s, one could always change the settings back if necessary and put back in at a future date the type of batteries you have now.  That would be the worst case situation, but due to their flexibility of having all of the safety features built into each battery unit, rather than the way the Mastervolt system was designed (with lots of accompanying needed components for control and safety), I seriously doubt they will not be around in 15 years or so when the bank would be due for replacement again.  They may have further evolved in capacity and other benefits, but I believe these people designed a home-run that will be around for a long time to come.  They have already been selling these battery units for just under 10 years now, with very good reviews.

Having talked to you at great length about reliability and common-sense approaches to coaches as we have, be clear that I am just as skeptical as you are, maybe more so, about the claims of manufacturers and new items that flood the market on a regular basis.  I have put a lot of time and research, and talking with the companies to determine what really is the basis and truth about all of these products.  For instance, there are several companies that are advertizing “drop-in” replacement Lithium Ion batteries.  They each use different cell types for various reasons.  The companies I have discussed utilize high quality-controlled cylindrical cells.  Most of the others out there utilize prismatic cells in pouch-like form.  The prismatics are much more difficult to put together, while still insuring uniformity and a high degree of quality control simply because of the way the pouch prismatic cells are assembled together.  You can get a greater energy density by some degree, but the benefits of safety and uniformity of construction you get with the way the cylindrical cells are assembled to form the overall battery, added with the inherent safety of these cells, far outway, at least to me, the potential for a bit greater energy density.  I am not naming names here, but I HAVE already told you the two brands that I like, and now you have the specifics on why.  I have seen demonstration videos of the cylindrical cell battery units being shot and/or impacted and it is very reassuring to see how they react, especially when you consider the oxide-type battery units (think Tesla, Samsung Galaxy phones) and how they burst into flames under the same test.  I will find one of those videos and post the link to it for reference of anyone interested.

Ben Cummings
U.S.A. Luxury Coaches, LLC
4501-B Ulmerton Rd
Clearwater, FL 33762
USALuxurycoach.com
813-830-8619 (cell)

[Mubashir Hayat]

We are on the same page, Ben and I cannot name names but you know why I have a certain degree of mistrust of some Li claims.

Li is where we are heading but I doubt if many of us want to be test pilots. I recognize we will have some issues to resolve such as an autostart that is triggered when the AGMs are in the sub 12 volt range. I happen to be dry camping now and in the balance of this month I will have another 10 days or so of dry camping. Whille my AGMs and their avalable power is ample for the 95% of my coach use, having the same weight of batteries and 2 times the stored power would be great right now, or the same stored power but 400 pounds less weight to drag around would also be great.

But to justify the cost I would want assurance the technology I install would not be out of date in 10 or 20 years and the battery life would be that long.

Jon and Di 2006 Liberty Elegant Lady, 2021
Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1950 Ford
Knoxville, TN

Owner of three Liberty Coaches since 1990

 

[Mubashir Hayat]

Am likely not a good candidate for a LI conversion given the way we use our coach.

But my Marathon question for Jack and Ben would be what are the implications of the AGM to Li conversion on all the coach integration Tech Link monitoring of battery systems etc?

would techlink all have to be reprogrammed etc?

 

Good conversation

 

Bill

 

 

Bill, Lauren, Emma, Grace and Will2007 Marathon H3-452012 Chevy Traverse

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